Show Notes

• U.S. Naval Academy
• Lessons learned as an Academic All-American soccer player
• Military career
• “Duke”
• Thoughts about Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom
• Women in the military
• Being selected for Astronaut Candidate Training
• The “job” of an astronaut
• Artemis mission – first woman on the moon?
• SpaceX Crew-5 mission to the International Space Station
• The role of private companies in space exploration
• The effect of “deployment” on families

Connect With Nicole Mann

Twitter – https://twitter.com/AstroDuke

Summary

Lieutenant Colonel Nicole Mann is a U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot and a NASA Astronaut. She shares what it was like to be deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what it would mean to be the first woman to set foot on the moon!

Full Transcript

Brian:

Welcome to another episode of Life Excellence with Brian Bartes. Join me as I talk with amazing athletes, entrepreneurs, authors, entertainers, and others who have achieved excellence in their chosen field so you can learn their tools, techniques, and strategies for improving performance and achieving greater success.

Lieutenant Colonel Nicole Mann is a U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot and a NASA astronaut. She has served 22 years as an active duty military officer. Colonel Mann was deployed twice aboard aircraft carriers in support of combat operations, has more than 2500 flight hours in 25 types of aircraft completed, 200 landings on aircraft carriers, and has flown 47 combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. After receiving several academic and sports awards as a student athlete at the United States Naval Academy, in her military career Colonel Mann has received two Air Medals, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, two Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medals, and various unit commendations. Colonel Mann was selected in 2013 as one of eight members of the 21^st NASA astronaut class. Her astronaut candidate training, which she completed in 2015, included intensive instruction in International Space Station systems, spacewalks, Russian language training, and water and wilderness survival training. In December 2020 she was selected as a member of the Artemis Mission which aims to land the first woman and the next man on the moon as soon as 2025. Colonel Mann joins us today from NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston, which has served as a hub of human space flight activity for more than half a century. Welcome Nicole, and thanks so much for being on Life Excellence.

Nicole:

Thanks Brian, I’m excited to chat with you today.

Brian:

The first thing I’d like to say is what an honor it is to have you on the show today. One of our goals for the show, Nicole, is to host guests who are not only doing great things in the world but who we can hold up as models of excellence. When I was growing up, heroes included police, firefighters, doctors and nurses, and of course, the military. I recently read a JFK quote that said “The cost of freedom is always high but Americans have always paid it”, and the people who pay that price, Nicole, as you know—day in and day out—are men and women like you who have fought, and continue to fight, for our country and for our freedom in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and around the world. You are a hero, Nicole, I really appreciate you and it’s truly an honor to have you on the show.

Nicole:

Thank you very much.

Brian:

I’m fascinated by your background and by your career. How did you decide on the Naval Naval Academy and a career in the military?

Nicole:

Well, for me, it wasn’t something I had figured out right away. I knew early on, I think in high school, that I wanted to serve in the military and serve my country and it was just this call to duty that I felt. My father served in Vietnam as a young man. Growing up in Northern California there wasn’t a lot of military influence. There were some kids at my high school that either went off to academies or were enlisted in the military. So that’s where I really started looking at military service. I also played soccer growing up—that was one of my great passions. I knew that I wanted to go to a great college and I was interested in engineering. Through a little research I stumbled upon the service academies, and the coach at the time, and actually still the coach at the Naval Academy, is Carin Gabbara and she was literally my idol growing up as a kid—like posters of her on my wall—so I went for a recruiting visit to the Naval Academy and just fell in love with it. For me it was the best of all three of those worlds:  academics, athletics, and then also military service.

Brian:

I’d like to talk more about soccer. So you earned a bachelor’s and a master’s degree in mechanical engineering and you were an outstanding student. You were also an academic All-American soccer player, in fact, and as a senior you were the captain of your team that went undefeated and won Navy’s first conference title. You seem to excel at everything you’re committed to and I’m curious about your background in soccer. What qualities and lessons did you learn playing soccer that have helped you in your career?

Nicole:

I think there are many parallels and lessons that I learned, especially early on, as a kid playing a team sport. Any type of sport requires commitment and dedication, and then you learn to work and function on a team. You also learn to deal with disappointments and those tough losses sometimes, how to recover from that and how to move forward. Those are definitely challenges that I experienced at the Naval Academy, later on in life, and even now So I think for me at a young age, as a young kid, soccer was the beginning of laying that foundation.

Brian:

When did you start playing soccer?

Nicole:

As early as I can remember, as like a little five or six year old kid, and you just run around in these little bunches and everybody just kicks the ball. I played a couple of sports as a kid but early on, I think around age ten, I knew that soccer soccer was my sport and I started playing that year round.

Brian:

Okay. So when you graduated you were commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps and after that I believe you completed your master’s degree at Stanford and then went to The Basic School at Quantico and then you entered flight school. Hopefully I got the timeline correct.

Nicole:

You’ve you’ve got it perfect, Brian.

Brian:

Okay good. Tell us about your early military career.

Nicole:

Absolutely, and so my military career really starts at the Naval Academy as a midshipman. You’re fully immersed in the military and one of the coolest things about that is you get some time and a sense of what you’d like to do in the military. So beyond your training during the academic year, during the summers you get to train with the actual fleet—Marine forces or the Navy—spend some time on a ship, in a submarine, and flying in airplanes. I spent some time with the Marine Corps and knew pretty early on that I definitely wanted to be a Marine. It was interesting, when I was at Stanford University—really a little bit of culture shock coming from the Naval Academy to Stanford University—but I think that was great for me as far as making me more of a well-rounded person.

I was so anxious—I could not wait to begin my official military training at The Basic School. That is six months and it’s basic infantry tactics. Every Marine is a rifleman and so you need to understand from a fundamental level how the Marine Corp’s operating and your best way to support the Marine Corps. After that it was off to flight school and I was just as excited to begin flight school. I had never flown anything other than an airliner before. So my first flight in a T-34 was pretty exciting.

Brian:

That’s amazing. I think it’s so cool that you’re a fighter pilot and so cool that I get to talk to you about that. In fact, I remember reading somewhere that your call sign is Duke, which to me is like the coolest fighter pilot nickname you can have, but it isn’t one that I would have guessed for you. Can you share the story behind that nickname?

Nicole:

I can. Usually call signs make fun of you a little bit, at least in the Navy and the Marine Corps they do. Apparently I walk a little funny. In fact, my friends even as early as high school kind of made fun of the way I walked. It’s a little bit of a soccer’s player’s walk and I kind of walk like this a bit, which people say is a little bit like John Wayne, whose nickname was the Duke. So people started calling me Duke and it stuck. I think it could be a lot worse so I just didn’t say anything.

Brian:

Well, the correlation with John Wayne makes sense, I never guessed that. I spent some time trying to figure out like Duke, where could that come from? Soccer? How does that work? John Wayne makes sense. Nicole, you deployed twice aboard the USS Enterprise and flew combat missions in support of operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom. What was it like as you were going through that experience and what thoughts do you have today as you reflect back on that?

Nicole:

The training that you go through is so intense to prepare before you go on any type of deployment. That starts in flight school, and then even when you get to your squadron there’s a lot of qualifications that you need to gain. And the Marine Corps does an incredible job in preparing you. By the time I deployed and we served in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, initially it feels like I’m launching on a training mission. I’ve done this hundreds of times. You go through all your checklists, you chair fly in your brain exactly what you’ll be doing, what your responsibilities are. Then once you get over country everything changes pretty rapidly and you realize this is no longer a training mission. This is is real life—you’re supporting Marines and other forces on the ground—and it’s a pretty sobering experience. At the same time you’re proud to serve your country. You’re proud to do your part and execute after all the years of training. But of course, nobody wants to fight in a war and we want to avoid that. But if it is necessary then you want to be prepared when your nation calls upon you.

Brian:

Well, as you know, it’s very necessary to protect the freedom of our country and so again I appreciate the men and women who do that. I can’t imagine what that’s like whether you’re on a plane or on the ground but I certainly appreciate, and I’m grateful for, that service of thousands of men and women.

Nicole:

Thank you, Brian.

Brian:

I read an article recently that Congress is moving toward requiring women to register for the draft, which of course would be the first time in American history that that’s happened. From your perspective, what are the opportunities that open up for women but also for the military as a whole if this comes to pass? And what are some of the challenges that you see, of this registration requirement?

Nicole:

So it’s interesting, now there are very few limitations for women. There are a couple areas where there may be some different physical standards. But unlike days past, women can serve in direct combat arms, can fly any type of aircraft, and so there really are no restrictions or barriers in front of you. I think it would be interesting. We’ve gone such a long time where men were part of the draft and women were not, but I think if we get to this point in the world today where our country is calling upon a draft and calling upon U.S. citizens to defend our nation it’s going to be a very dire day and we’re going to need all the help and support that we can.

Brian:

Is that something that you’re proud of as a woman with your military background, that we’re facing that possibility that women…I mean that’s the last step toward total equality in the military, opening up the draft to women?

Nicole:

Yes, and we do have a volunteer military and we have had so ever since Vietnam. I think that is important and that’s one of our foundations and we will continue that. So I certainly feel proud as a woman to have served in the military, just like a man or or anyone else would be proud to serve in the military.

Brian:

Sure. That same article that I was reading, and this was just a couple weeks ago, gave statistics about the percentage of women currently in the military. The article stated that 17 percent of active military are now women. But it was interesting to me, leading up to our conversation, that the Marine Corps has the lowest percentage with just under nine percent. What was it like having ten men around you for every one woman? And do you think that it’s easier for women in the military or is it more difficult?

Nicole:

To be honest with you I didn’t notice a difference in the ratio of men to women. I think the Marine Corps specifically does a great job in that because Marines are Marines. You’re not a woman or a man, you’re just a Marine. And so you’re really judged upon your ability to execute in training and perform your duties. I think that was instilled very early on at The Basic School and even at the Naval Academy, how important that is for the camaraderie of the group and specifically the Marine Corps. I think other services are definitely following in that suit. So fortunately for me, it wasn’t a big deal. I didn’t really notice it. There were women in my Basic School class, in flight school, certainly in my squadron there happened to be no other women that were pilots, but there were other women that served as maintainers or as maintenance officers in the squadron.

I’m not quite sure why the percentages would be less. I think we’re still in an era where people are realizing, especially young girls, that those barriers are being broken down and they can really do whatever they want to do. A lot of folks are brought up in a traditional sense and there’s nothing wrong with that. Some people are not interested in serving in the military and some women are more interested in having a different career path and maybe focusing on a more traditional role in their life. But I think we’re seeing the interest starting to peak in young kids, at least when I have the opportunity to speak to young kids in an elementary school, you really notice that their questions are no longer specifically as a girl could I do this, as a boy could I do this. They are just across the board excited about opportunities and so I think we’re definitely making progress.

Brian:

So you do think that over time those numbers will increase? There’s certainly a lot of talk about overcoming barriers like you mentioned, in business—breaking through the glass ceiling—or in sports parody. That’s something that we see all the time, read about. It’s very prevalent. I don’t think most of us have that same insight into the military, but you think the discussion that’s taking place in the world will carry into the military and that over time those numbers will increase?

Nicole:

Absolutely, Brian. I think you’re going to see the military parallel what we’re seeing in the civilian world specifically, as you mentioned, with businesses and women in leadership roles and athletics. I mean we’re really as a society looking for equality across the board. I do think that will carry over and it’s starting to already in the military, maybe not as rapidly. The change takes time and I think this change will be generational but we’re definitely seeing improvements.

Brian:

Well, as long as women like you are out there, leaders like you are out there, promoting the military and and promoting NASA—and we’re going to jump into that in just a minute—I think those young girls that you’ve talked about, certainly the ones that you have the opportunity to speak with and and get to know, will be encouraged and will be thinking about the military in a way that they hadn’t before those conversations. So that’s a good thing.

Nicole:

So I think so.

Brian:

Nicole, your career shifted in 2013 when you joined NASA. How did NASA enter your life as a career possibility? Was that something that you sought out or were you approached to apply?

Nicole:

No, it was something I definitely sought out. I was always interested in exploration and the stars, I think just as any young kid would be. Even early in my military career, though I didn’t realize the possibility of being an astronaut. I just never thought that was something that was in the realm of possibilities. I’m not sure why. I was interested in becoming a test pilot. As I mentioned, I studied mechanical engineering and I really liked the engineering side of the world as well as the fighter pilot side. So those two things came together as an opportunity to be a test pilot. So I applied to test pilot school. It was during that time that I was doing a little research on what do test pilots do, what are my career opportunities after completing the school, and I came across a couple of Marines that were astronauts. I read their bios and I said oh my goodness, this is very similar to my bio, I wonder if this is something I could actually do. That really began the journey for me to look into being a NASA astronaut. It wasn’t until four years after graduating Navy test pilot school that I was selected into NASA. It’s an application process just like any other government job. Believe it or not, you apply on usajobs gov. It’s a website form you fill out and it’s about a year and a half long process that involves formal interviews, some practical exercises down here at Johnson Space Center, some tests, some medical check-outs. In fact, very exciting—we just selected our newest class of astronauts that are going to start training in 2022. So we’re pretty excited to have the new group down here.

Brian:

Well you beat me to the punch, because I was going to mention that was just announced Monday. But just to give our audience a sense of how competitive that application process is that you talked about, I’m not sure what it was like back in 2013, but the newest astronaut class—again was just announced Monday—and more than 12,000 people applied for just ten positions. So it’s a pretty competitive program, isn’t it.

Nicole:

Yes, it really is and you’ve got those numbers right. Fortunately, we always have a great pool of folks that apply and are excited to be astronauts. Unfortunately, we’re only able to take around ten, we took eight in my class, but it’s always good to have people that are interested and that continue to apply.

Brian:

How many astronauts are there at any given time in the NASA program? I read that I think there have been 360 since the inception of the program in 1959. How many are there active currently?

Nicole:

I think there’s around like mid-forties right now. That number fluctuates, as the new class comes in we’ll have a little bit higher numbers, and then as folks retire or move on the number starts to dwindle. Then four years later we get another astronaut class, they kind of go back up. Typically, at least since I’ve been at NASA for the past eight years, they’ve been in the mid-forties.

Brian:

So is it every four years that classes are selected? I knew that the last one was 2017, and yours obviously was 2013. So it is every four years that a new class comes in?

Nicole:

Typically it has been, and the class before that was 2009, although there’s no set rule. It’s really based upon the needs of the astronaut corps; how many active astronauts we have and the upcoming missions that we’re preparing for. So back in the day when we flew [the] shuttle they would select a class sometimes once a year and sometimes 30 people. There were a lot more people flying on a shuttle flight than there are on the spacecraft that we have now.

Brian:

If there are about forty active astronauts currently, is there camaraderie among the forty? Or are you off doing different things and you’re not really together. Do you have opportunities to to work together or get together? What’s that like.

Nicole:

There is great camaraderie in the office. Unfortunately, we aren’t always together and we are training at varying locations. So if you’re flying on a Soyuz spacecraft for example, the majority of your time is in Russia in Star City If you’re flying SpaceX, the majority of time is in Hawthorne near LA, where SpaceX is, and if you’re preparing for a Boeing flight on Starliner, the majority of your training is here at Johnson Space Center and Kennedy Space Center. Although folks are off on individual training missions, when you’re specifically assigned a mission, there’s a lot still here at Johnson Space Center that we do to support current ongoing operations on the International Space Station or helping to develop some of these new spacecraft, specifically Orion which is going to take us to the moon. So folks really work together and you balance back and forth between those roles. It’s always great when we’re all able to get together. Unfortunately COVID has has changed that over the past couple years, but we were able to get together and celebrate the new astronaut selection. Everybody was pretty excited. There was a lot of energy in the room and it was great to have everyone in one place.

Brian:

That’s awesome, I bet that was great fun. So you’ve had a number of interesting assignments since joining NASA, can you help us understand what the job of an astronaut looks like? Obviously you’re you’re not on the moon right now and and you’re not flying around in space. What is it that you do? You’ve been an astronaut for going on eight years or or close to it. What do you do on a day to day, week to week, month to month basis? What does that look like?

Nicole:

Well, it really changes quite a bit. Those first two years when you first get here at NASA you’re an astronaut candidate affectionately, known as an ASCAN, and those two years are a training and so you’re getting qualified on the International Space Station maintenance, you’re learning to do spacewalks, you’re learning to fly T-38, you’re learning to fly the robotic arm, and you’re also learning to speak Russian. So that’s a busy time. It’s kind of like being in flight school and grad school at the same time. Once you finish that then you’re an astronaut. However, you’re an unflown astronaut but you’re eligible for a space flight. Then you get some advanced quals in robotics, you’ll get a a CAPCOM qual, which is Capsule Communicator. That’s the person that sits in mission control and talks to the astronauts on the International Space Station throughout the daily operations. So of course I did that for a while and then I was assigned as the expiration branch. So I got to work with our new systems:  the space launch system, which is our new rocket, and Orion, which is now part of the Artemis program that’s going to take us to the moon. So they have astronauts that are involved in the early stages of that development, so we can help translate some of those engineering requirements to operational “speak” and be able to interject some real life experiences in some of those operations. Back in 2000…[crosstalk] sorry, go ahead…just kind to answer.

Brian:

Oh I was just going say it’s a very widespread preparation. Not just the training, but once you become a full astronaut, or whatever the term is, there’s a wide variety and and it seems pretty intense. Does the intensity ever let up?

Nicole:

Rarely. [Laughter]. It kind of ebbs and flows a little bit. When you’re in a training flow it’s very intense training. Then when you come off of a training flow, like you return from a mission, you do have some down time and then you go back into a support role maybe working future programs or working as a CAPCOM again, then you have a little bit more control of your schedule, which is important in life because otherwise you would totally get burnout if you just went full after burner at all times. But when you’re assigned a mission, it is pretty much full after burner just to prepare for that mission and be ready to launch.

Brian:

Nicole, you mentioned Orion and the Artemis program. I was trying to imagine what it was like to be contacted by someone telling you that you’ve been chosen to be part of the Artemis mission and that two of your 18 member team will end up on the moon. How did you react to that news initially and what subsequent thoughts do you have about that mission?

Nicole:

Well I think after all the whoopin’ and hollering and excitement you sit down to think about that mission and it’s just incredible. We have this team of astronauts, the Artemis team, that are working to develop these missions that will take us to the moon. And fortunately, we’ll have hopefully at least ten missions a part of the Artemis program, so you’ll see much more than just two people travel to the moon. Hopefully the entire entire team will have the opportunity to go, and as with the new astronauts coming in, there’ll be new members to the team that are added. So it’s not a flight assignment, a flight assignment means you are specifically assigned this mission and you will fly that mission. It’s a little bit different from that concept.

Brian:

The whooping and the hollering—did that happen on the actual phone call or was that right after you hung up? Just out of curiosity.

Nicole:

No, Brian, you’ve got to remain cool. You know what I mean? You’ve got to stay cool and so the second you hung up, you make sure you actually hung up, then you can whoop and holler all you want. [Laughter].

Brian:

Oh, that’s funny. What would it mean to you to be the first woman on the moon and how how likely is it that you’ll be selected? Have you thought about that at all?

Nicole:

Oh, of course I have! I mean it would just be absolutely incredible. I don’t know, it’s definitely a possibility. Right now I’m training on a mission to go to the International Space Station aboard a SpaceX spacecraft and so I’m very focused on that mission now. But when I return, then I’ll have an opportunity to look at what’s next in in my career. We’ll see how the timing works out. I know I’ll certainly be involved in that mission, whether that be helping develop Orion or the operations on board. And certainly it’d be great to be a crew member on board that mission if not the first and maybe the second or the third or the fourth, you never know.

Brian:

Well, I mean there haven’t been that many on the moon, right?

Nicole:

There really haven’t yet.

Brian:

So it would just be great if you’re part of that group. You mentioned the the International Space Station assignment and that was just a couple months ago, I think, that it was announced that you’ll serve as the spacecraft commander for the SpaceX Crew-5 mission to the International Space Station. And I think this is your first trip to space, right, for what’s been described as a long duration stay. I thought that phrase was interesting and so how long will that stay be? And tell us more about Crew-5 and the whole assignment.

Nicole:

Absolutely, so the stay aboard the International Space Station is typically six months, plus or minus a month or so, but we have some crew members that have been up there almost a year. So it’s not uncommon for folks to be extended up on the International Space Station just depending on the needs and the launch rate. So right now we have two spacecraft that go to the space station, the Soyuz spacecraft and then Crew Dragon. Crew Dragon is obviously built by SpaceX and we have our team that’s training—it’s myself, Josh Cassada, and then we have a Japanese astronaut, Koichi Wakata. And then we’re waiting for a final decision on our other mission specialist. So there’ll be four of us that are training and we’ll spend about two days inside of Crew Dragon before docking with the International Space Station. Then we’ll execute a six month mission on board. During that time Crew Dragon stays attached to the space station. It’s our life raft should something happen to the space station or one of us and we need to get home. And then at the end of the mission, we detach and within the same day, after a few orbits, we’ll come back and we’ll land in the water in the Gulf or off the east coast of Florida.

Brian:

What’s the timing of that mission?

Nicole:

We’re slated right now for fall of ’22, so less than a year away.

Brian:

Oh wow, that’s super exciting. What kind of work will you be doing during those six months? Do you know yet or is that something that…[crosstalk]

Nicole:

There’s…so, a little bit generally speaking. You have an idea. All astronauts are trained and each expedition—is what we call it when you’re on board—has responsibilities as far as maintaining the space station. So that may be executing upgrades or doing maintenance on board the space station and then certainly maintenance and upgrades outside the space station which is one of the coolest things that we do in space. Those are spacewalks, or EVAs—Extra Vehicular Activity—and so hopefully right now, the long-term plan, there are a couple of EVAs planned for the time that we’ll be up there. You just hope those don’t move around too much so that you get a chance to do one. Of course we’ll have robotics operations as we capture visiting vehicles which bring us food, and science on board. We’ll be executing experiments on board and that’s a lot of what we’re learning right now. So we’re training specifically on flying Crew Dragon and those operations, but we’re also training specifically on the science that will be conducted aboard the International Space Station, the different payloads that we’ll fly and we’ll get training specifically on those experiments that we’ll be executing.

Brian:

That sounds like an awesome experience. I have to tell you I don’t often share my personal goals on the show, Nicole, but visiting the International Space Station has been on my life goals list for a very long time. I won’t ask you for a commitment but if you ever have an opportunity to bring a friend along just know that I’m ready. I don’t want to repair antennas though.

Nicole:

No antennas, okay, I’ll write down no antennas, but I’ll let you know when there’s a seat with your name on it. We actually do have some space tourists coming up to the space station in the spring on Axiom 1, which they’ll be on a SpaceX spacecraft, flown by a former astronaut and it’ll be our first, at least U.S., venture with putting civilians on the space station. The Russians have done that before on a Soyuz and in fact, we just had a couple Japanese tourists docked to the International Space Station very recently.

Brian:

That will be my only hope because certainly becoming an astronaut isn’t going to happen. [Laughter] We’ll see. Nicole, as you know, space exploration has changed tremendously since Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin first set foot on the moon in 1969. And we’ve talked about it a little bit, I think one of the biggest changes is the increased role of private companies, people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos with their companies SpaceX and Blue Origin, have really disrupted, or at least altered, some of the conventional thinking around space technology and I’m guessing NASA’s approach at least as it relates to low earth orbit. How do you feel about it, and you mentioned visitors going to the International Space Station and personal travel, how do you feel about the commercialization of space exploration and travel? Where do you think this is all headed? At what point will I be able to go online like I do to take a flight to New York and go to the moon or go to the International Space Station?

Nicole:

Sooner than you think, Brian. I really think we’re headed that way and it’s so exciting. NASA is partnering with our commercial industry in order to really open up low earth orbit. We’ve seen incredible things. You’ve seen that with Blue Origin and SpaceX and what we’ve done with Crew Dragon, partnerships—even going back to the moon as part of the Artemis program. It allows us to do so much more than just being a government agency and relying on that. These companies have such brilliant ideas and different approaches than maybe the way that we’ve done it in the past. So together with all the experience that NASA brings we’re able to do more. I think you’re really going to see low earth orbit open up to more than just astronauts, to people that are journalists or podcasters and maybe artists and scientists will be on board the International Space Station or potentially other orbiting platforms in low Earth orbit. I think that’s incredible. They’re going to be able to communicate back to folks on earth, much better than I can, how incredible our planet is, relay how important it is to take care of our planet and really help inspire that next generation. I see this as an evolution of us as humans, not to mention we have the commercial industries working with international partners as well. It’s really uniting the world and it is an area where we can come together in a common goal. I think that’s certainly something that we need these days, and it’s going to be important as we move forward as a human race.

Brian:

What I hear you saying is that there’s a chance that I’ll be doing the Life Excellence podcast from some place like the International Space Station?

Nicole:

I think there’s definitely a chance. I think we’re going to see that in our lifetime.

Brian:

I can’t wait! Nicole, it seems like NASA’s focus is shifting away from low earth orbit missions in favor of the moon. You had talked about the the number of expeditions that are planned to the to the moon and I know that Mars is is being talked about and missions are being planned. How soon do you think it will be before we send manned spacecraft to Mars?

Nicole:

I hope that soon. We still have a lot of work to do and that’s why we’re going to the moon to help develop—not only from a technical perspective, but from an operational perspective. How are we going to live and work farther removed from earth without direct support at all times from the ground or from 95 percent of the time from the ground? So that’s what these Artemis missions to the moon are going to allow us to establish. Not only is it allowing us to have sustained presence on the lunar surface but we’re really going to be able to figure out this network of communication and how we are going to take care of our astronauts on that long journey to Mars. What type of an exercise protocol is needed for that kind of extended period and how do they operate and communicate back with the ground when we don’t have as great of communication as rapidly as we do in low Earth orbit. So I think you’re right, you see NASA shifting their focus as we shift over transportation of astronauts to the International Space Station to our commercial partners and really see low earth orbit commercialize. It allows NASA now to shift their focus to the moon for Artemis and then eventually to Mars.

Brian:

Well, it’s all very exciting. I was talking with my producer before the show and he’s a little bit older than…well I’m a little bit older than you and he’s a little bit older than me, but he remembers very vividly when when we first set foot on the moon. And he was really thinking that a long time ago people would have started to to be able to go to the moon. Of course he had shows like The Jetsons and all this futuristic thinking that helped with that thinking, but it’s super exciting to see it not only as a possibility but it’s actually happening. As you mentioned there are visitors going places now and I think the the rate of progress in the private sector certainly is going to go very quickly. I mean people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos aren’t people who want to invest a long time in these things, they want to make things happen sooner rather than later. So it’s all super exciting. 

I mentioned speed, and in the private sector the government isn’t—the stereotype is that our government takes longer—that the innovation isn’t quite what it might be with Blue Origin or SpaceX. Can you speak to that a little bit? I guess the question is, what is the impact of that innovation that the private sector companies, like SpaceX and and again, Blue Origin, are bringing to space exploration? And then in fairness to NASA, NASA’s been around a long time and I’m sure it has a tremendous amount of knowledge, tremendous infrastructure, and assets that it brings to the the table. How does that all work together going forward for the future of space exploration?

Nicole:

You’re right, and it’s very interesting and it’s so important that we have this partnership. What we’ve seen specifically with Crew Dragon and SpaceX, you nailed it, it’s the innovation, it’s the new ideas, it’s this young group of people coming through that are approaching this space flight challenge from a different perspective and a different lens. They have a different ability to to be agile and follow maybe a different set of rules. At the same time, experience is not there, especially in the beginning. It’s starting to build though, and I think NASA provides those years and years of experience and safety and processes that are important that need to be followed. So it’s really this checks and balances, and working together to identify—on the NASA side—hey, we’re concerned about this process or the redundancy of this system, and then we challenge the commercial industry to then, no, prove that this is a new way of doing it, but it is safe and we’re running these level of tests. So together both teams need to be confident and both teams come to the table before we launch anything, especially humans, and they agree, in a flight readiness review, we are safe, we are ready to go. It’s just incredible to see that partnership. We have so much competition in the world and when we see that people could come together that may not have the the same approach, we are so much stronger as a group than just as individuals—and even that being individual companies or agencies. So you’ll continue to see that partnership when we go to the moon under Artemis. It’s very different than we went to the moon with Apollo. Partnering with international partners and commercial industry, SpaceX has a contract for the first human lander system on the moon. It’s just going to be incredible.

Brian:

Can you talk about the importance of learning Russian? That was part of the astronaut candidate training and obviously, I think most people know that the Russians are going to space as well. But why Russian rather than Chinese? If you could just talk about what that looks like in space as you’re joining astronauts from other countries.

Nicole:

Absolutely. So after the space shuttle stopped flying in 2011, we became 100 percent reliant on the Russians and flying a Soyuz spacecraft was our only way to get to the International Space Station. Now fortunately, that reliance ended when Demo 2 launched on Crew Dragon for the first flight of humans to launch from American soil since 2011. It took quite some time and so during that time it became a requirement for astronauts to learn Russian, mainly because your ride to space was on a Soyuz spacecraft and that spacecraft is a Russian spacecraft. All the procedures are in Russian, the communications in Russian, everything, so that’s where that requirement came from.

Now on board the International Space Station it is truly an international space station, but the common language on board is English. And so all the cosmonauts speak English as well. We also have Japanese, European, and Canadian astronauts and so Russian language training now is specifically important for flying on a Soyuz. But as we see this transition to American companies and flying from the United states, that requirement may change in the future. I’ve not not heard of any changes yet but I wouldn’t be surprised if that evolves just like our partnerships in space are evolving.

Brian:

I’ve always thought it’s a little arrogant that Americans expect that English is going to be the common language, but it’s certainly easier and thinking about…I scuba dive, and so I’ve dived on ships that have been sunk and you see there are instructions all around, and so you’re right, if it’s a Russian spacecraft it’s not just speaking with Russian astronauts. It’s reading the the procedures or just reading things that are are on signs on the spacecraft. And that’s very different than conversational Russian too, right? That’s a very specific, very scientific, technical Russian language that needs to be learned.

Nicole:

Absolutely. It’s very unique and a lot of our training focuses, in the beginning just general conversational speaking, but then you really focus on the technical terms. Then it becomes more difficult, in fact, to have just a general conversation because you’re used to speaking in this technical language that’s a little more scripted but that’s very important because should there be an emergency aboard the Soyuz all the communication is with MCCC in Moscow and that’s all in Russian.

Brian:

Oh that’s fascinating. We don’t think about things like that as we think about space travel. Can we talk a little bit about your personal life? So you have a family and what I’m wondering about is you’re used to the idea of being deployed, and I don’t know if you were married or had a child when you were deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan, but being deployed into a foreign country—I mean that’s one level of being away from home and that’s not the easiest thing in the world. Sometimes it’s hard to be away from family for a weekend, or for a week, or an extended period of time, let alone deployment. But deployment, so to speak, to space for six months seems totally different. It’s another level of being away from family. You’ve obviously discussed that with your husband and you’ve thought about that. Maybe you’ve spoken about that with other astronauts and it could be that that’s part of the astronaut training. Talk about what that looks like mentally, could you tell us about that a little bit.

Nicole:

Absolutely. It’s important to think about things like that because when you’re on board the space station for six months there’s a lot expected of you and you need to be mentally in the right place in order to execute your job and be efficient. So we do focus in our training on how you’re going to have that support from your family and take care of yourself while you’re on board. Fortunately, the communication is pretty good aboard the International Space Station, sometimes better than when you’re deployed to a foreign land or certainly if you’re a submariner and you’re underneath the water. We have email and that comes up every day. In fact, you can pick up a phone and make a phone call to anybody that you’d like to at any time, if your schedule allows. Then once a week you have an opportunity to do a video conference with your family. So I think that for me is going to be really big to see my son, he’s nine years old now, and so I think to be able to see each other, even if it’s just once a week, that’s something I will definitely look forward to and I think that will give me that spark and that energy that I need sometimes, if you’re feeling that you’re missing your loved ones.

Brian:

So you’re not totally disconnected, and as you said, depending on where military personnel are deployed around the world, they might not have the the same access to that technology that you will on the International Space Station.

Nicole:

Absolutely. If you’re in a submarine and you go comm out, they cut all comm for months and months at a time. So I think it’s a little more challenging for the military and I’m only 250 miles away when I’m in space. So it’s not really that bad and every so often my son will be able to go outside and look up at the sky and see me pass over in an International Space Station. I think that will be pretty cool.

Brian:

How excited is he to have a mom for an astronaut or an astronaut for a mom, I should say [laughter] that’s really cool.

Nicole:

He’s pretty excited. It’s funny though because we live in the neighborhood where a lot of kids have parents that are astronauts, so it’s not that uncommon in the schools and in the neighborhood that we live.

Brian:

Oh, that’s awesome. Nicole, thank you so much for being on the show today. It really has been an honor and a privilege to host you and I look forward to following your career and to seeing you soon in space.

Nicole:

Well, thank you, Brian, it’s been really enjoyable chatting with you today and I look forward to seeing many more of your podcasts.

Brian:

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Thanks for tuning into Life Excellence. If you enjoyed the show today with astronaut Nicole Mann, then please subscribe to the podcast or to our YouTube channel, it really helps. Also if you’re not already following me on Instagram, you can find me @BrianEBartes. Until next time, dream big dreams and make each day your masterpiece.