Show Notes

• What separates the best from the rest?
• Are chess skills innate or learned?
• Growing up as a chess prodigy
• Why there are so few women grandmasters
• Will we ever have a woman world chess champion?
• The concentration and mindset required in chess
• What Yifan loves about chess
• Her decision to step away from chess
• Becoming the youngest full professor at Shenzhen University
• The lessons we can glean from the game of chess
• How to achieve success – in any area of life

Summary

Hou Yifan is a chess grandmaster, four-time Women’s World Chess Champion, and the second highest-rated female player of all time. She was the youngest female player ever to qualify for the title of grandmaster, and the youngest ever to win the Women’s World Chess Championship. Yifan shares the story behind her impressive accomplishments and the most important lessons about life that we can glean from the game of chess.

Full Transcript

Brian

Hou Yifan is a chess grandmaster, four-time Women’s World Chess Champion, and the second highest rated female player of all time. A child prodigy, she was the youngest female player ever to qualify for the title of grandmaster, which she achieved at the age of 14, and the youngest ever to win the Women’s World Chess Championship at age 16. Yifan is the third woman ever to be rated among the world’s top 100 players. She is widely regarded as the best active female chess player in the world, and has been ranked number one in the world since 2015. Despite being semi-retired since 2018, Yifan’s accomplishments outside chess are equally impressive. After graduating from Peking University, she was offered a Rhodes Scholarship and obtained a master’s degree at Oxford University. In 2020, at the age of 26, Yifan became the youngest full professor in the history of Shenzhen University. She is also a published author, having written books on chess strategy and tactics. Yifan’s dedication, passion and strategic mind have made her one of the most successful and admired chess players in history. It’s an honor to have her on the show today. Nǐ hǎo, Yifan, and thank you for joining us on LifeExcellence.

Yifan

Hi, Brian, thanks for your introduction, and I’m very happy to join our conversation today.

Brian

It’s great to have you. Yifan, your success as a chess champion is incredible and what makes it even more remarkable is the early age at which you achieved that level of success and your rapid ascension to becoming world champion. What sets the very best chess players apart from other top players?

Yifan

I haven’t really thought about this question seriously before but I think in any other field if you wanted to be one of the best – players or one of the best people – there is definitely something in common, for example, like resilience, like willpower, like the passion for the field, and a lot of things like focus, concentration and good mindset. But there should also be something unique to that person; you need to have something [that] belongs to you that probably makes you different from the others. I think that’s also important. But if you ask, for example, how chess players differ from the other players, I think probably – considering the traits of chess or the general perspective that chess may have – we need the players who should not only have a very good physical situation, who should not only have a good strategical point of view, [but also] have a good tactical ability, calculation ability, good mindset. So in general, it’s a combination you need to have to make yourself stand out. But also, I think, until a certain level, [having a ] gift [helps] a lot, but this gift only matters, for example, when you are already [in the] top 50, top 30 and you want to be the top ten in the open section, which I so far didn’t achieve yet.

Brian

Well, you haven’t…I like how you said “yet.” So what is the difference between, say, the players in the top ten versus somebody who’s ranked 100?

Yifan

I believe there’s a lot of difference. I think I can share some perspective on this matter, though I only entered [the] top 100, most likely not even [the] top 50. But somehow I [will] get the chance probably, one benefit [of] my gender and my age [is] that I can participate among those elite events to compete with all the best players around the world. A lot of top ten players actually I have played them quite often since we were both very young. So while I was playing with them, I felt like they are definitely professional chess players. I think professional makes players different, I’d say top ten, top 20 or top 100, because if you look at the list of top 100 players, probably there will be some who are not professional chess players. I mean, I’m not saying that they have other professions, yes, some they do. But even if you talk about their training methods, talk about their general lifestyle, it’s not like a pure professional chess player. So I think that matters, like how you train yourself scientifically. How you treat chess as your career, as your profession. Do you really manage chess as a sport, as a career, [such] that you think about the skill, the mindset, and also even your dietary habits that may influence your performance. But for me, to be honest, I really didn’t pay attention to a lot of other factors as a part of pure chess techniques. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m not the best of the best. Also, there are other differences, I believe most of the players who are in the top ten among the world should have a certain gift for chess. Let’s say the kid somehow shows, at an intuition level…like, you just see [the] chessboard, you just see this pattern recognition with certain type of moves and you even [can’t] express why this is good, just something born in nature to you. But for others, maybe you need a lot of training. Still, you cannot get the key point of that, we say it’s the sense of the chessboard. And I think this gift really matters. Most of the best players do have this intuition.

Brian

I appreciate that. We’ll talk more about the gifts. How did you first become aware of chess? How old were you when you started playing? You are obviously a gifted player, maybe from birth.

Yifan

I think that I probably do have [a] certain gift [for] chess, not the best. For example, I played with Magnus a lot of times and I can see that he is much better on this gift level. But I do have some because when I was young…I started to learn chess when I was five and a half years old and then after half a year I started to win tournaments from our province and then from the national level and then championship, step by step. Not only because of this performance but also I remember many chess people, even coaches who taught me, kept talking to people [saying] that they saw I was pretty talented in chess. I didn’t really see how they felt like this, probably they showed [me] some exercises, some hard and difficult positions, [and] the way I managed it, it was somehow [on a] good level. Also that sometimes I see positions in a different perspective. That [can] also influence your daily life, but that’s another topic. But I think this gift only matters when you really work hard in chess. If you just play for fun and you’re like a genius in chess, no, without hard work it will never work.

Brian

That’s a very good point. When we hear the term prodigy – I mentioned in the bio that you were a child prodigy – whether that applies to a chess player, a violinist, a mathematician, or a painter, we think of extraordinary innate talent or born talent. Do you believe you were born with the skills of a future grandmaster and world champion or were those skills learned and developed through the early training that you talked about?

Yifan

No, I really didn’t think about it before, and even now I look back, I don’t think I was really born with [nature] for chess. I thought on one hand, yes, chess is the sport that I love, I would like to put my effort on it. I have a passion about it, but on the other hand I also felt I was lucky. First I was lucky because I was born in an era that chess developed fast in China. For example, if you compare my generation, early 20s, the first of the new century, compared to like two or three decades ago, at that time even the material you could access to learn chess was difficult and as a Chinese, travel abroad to participate in chess was difficult. So all these situations [were a] challenge for someone, even who is talented, to develop fast in chess. So on this matter, I thought I was lucky to be in [the] right moment. Why the right moment? Because I think my generation is unique. At the very beginning, the invasion of AI, our rhythm of machine learning, is not everywhere, we still can show our own understanding, our human skills, to play chess. But only for five or even seven years because the chess engines have become super strong and really help a lot in their preparation, which could also provoke more young players who jump into a very strong level at a very young age. So I think that this era [has] all the access you can get, but somehow technology makes it develop too fast. Already, the nature of chess training, competition is completely different. So I was somehow in between, trying to switch from the traditional model to this era’s model so that it actually gave [me] – who is not a pure hardworking chess player – more chances to show skills; that’s the other thing which I thought I was lucky. Also, I was lucky because I got full support from my family, they really supported my own choice, my own interests to cultivate me in the chess world. Also, I was lucky that I could meet several very good coaches [for] my chess development at a very young age. Then later, I also got this opportunity to participate in a lot of strong events [and] represent China for the team championship, individual chess championship and also for those invitational chess tournaments and other invitational events [in Europe] so that really helped me to practice a lot.

Brian

You mentioned the support of your family, Yifan, it seems unusual for a young girl or even a young boy to move away from home, which I know you did, and dedicate your life to a particular undertaking. You did that at the age of seven. Could you tell us about that? Do you have recollection? I know that was a long time ago but do you have recollection of how you felt during that time and also, as you began competing? How were you received in the chess community? Was it unusual that somebody so young was playing in tournaments or was that commonplace in China?

Yifan

Well, I do have some impressions, actually. As I said before, I started to learn chess while I was five and half years old. So you actually have correct information. When I was seven years old, I moved to another province to learn chess, exactly after only one and one half years [of] learning chess; that was a difficult decision. From my own memory, I only remember that my parents told me, we have this summer break, we’ve got this good opportunity to learn chess, to follow one of the strong chess coaches in China, who himself is a chess grandmaster who won our national championship. So they wanted to visit another province just before the summer break and said [there is] some chess, [you can] play with some new friends. I thought, oh, that’s cool for a young girl to travel, to meet new friends, even to play chess the sport I love, that’s great. At that time, I even talked to my friends in primary school, oh, guys I’m moving to the northeast part of China and I’ll see you in the next semester. Yes, so that was my plan but somehow, I visited there and I remember that’s when the coach, the grandmaster, he saw me, wow, a girl, he was very happy because at that moment that he had, in his chess club, a lot of good chess players among the boys section, but for girls is just like [inaudible]. So when he saw me he was very happy and then he asked me to play with a couple of his students who he considered to be representing a different level, the best. Somehow I even played against the strongest boy around my age. So after that, the coach said, oh, you should stay here, you should learn. Practically you’re very strong but your theoretical chess knowledge is almost equal to zero. Pure practical players should learn more theories about chess, then he asked me to stay. And because of this, I stayed there for just one-half year, for much longer than I expected, and that also guided me to the professional chess world; that was the turning point. That’s my impression about that decision. To me, it was natural, nothing serious, such as a visit for fun, for my enjoyment, and somehow it just continued because of the good performance. This situation happened similarly, in many of the later career decisions, actually. But when I heard the story from my parents and my other family relatives, I heard something more, that this was actually a very difficult decision. My parents – staff in the government or in the company, whatever – they needed to ask for leave to bring me there because that was not a professional chess team. Most of the kids are local people and they just visit to learn and go back. But I need to find a place to stay. My parents needed to go back to work, so I needed to stay in a friend’s house, things like that. Later on, my mom traveled there accompanying me, there are a lot of things [that could] happen which I didn’t really pay attention to at that age. By the way, why I said family support is very important is because they were trying to [keep] information away from me, to help me fully concentrate on chess and that’s very important for a chess player to be fully concentrating. Back to the story, yes, at that time, most of my family members were against this decision but somehow my parents, especially my mom, were strongly supportive for this decision. She thought that if I wanted to improve my chess performance, I needed to find somewhere else [to learn] because in my hometown already, the coach said, either you find another place or we stop learning chess, because he saw if I was confined there it was just like a waste of time. So that was actually a critical decision, if I look back.

Brian

You outgrew that coach at a very early age. It’s a fascinating story. I love hearing you talk about the support of your family and your parents and your mother moving away with you. It’s interesting to me and I wonder, because obviously you’ve had conversations with your parents about this in recent years, do you know how it was that you were able to go and learn with the grandmaster and former world champion?

Yifan

Not former world champion – former national champion. He was just like 25-something, at his peak. So just a strong grandmaster in China in that generation, yes. Okay, so we talked about this? Well, not very often actually. But my first coach, who was an amateur chess player himself, said you need to find another place to study. So my parents start to look for both things. In that period the internet was not very popular and the information access was very limited. So my parents, coincidentally, met a chess coach, while I was playing our provisional chess tournament. And you know who he was? He was actually the father of the coach I went [to work with] in the northern part of China. They were just talking and the father said, oh, you know, actually my son is teaching chess in Shandong Province and I thought you could try [him]. So he gave the contacts to my parents and we tried that. So that’s the story I’ve heard, of course there’s something more in details, but it’s just like a story line – just coincidentally, we found this – actually, my parents did find a lot of coaches trying to talk, to compare, to see what is the best situation for me. Just naturally, coincidentally, you know something good and you trust it, and you just go with it without too much hesitation. Sometimes it’s important in life decisions, but also in chess decisions during a single game.

Brian

Well, that’s wonderful the way it turned out. So it was really good old fashioned networking. It’s interesting that even in the chess world, sometimes it’s who you know and making connections that create opportunities. We’ve mentioned a couple times the term “grandmaster.” I suspect that a lot of our listeners and viewers will be familiar with chess and familiar with some of the terminology, but just to give people who aren’t as familiar with chess some perspective, I read that of the 1700 grandmasters in the world today, only 40 are women. I wonder, is that a function of the sheer number of men players compared to women or is there more to it?

Yifan

I am not so sure if we’re talking statistically, but the general situation, yes, if you compare certain levels, the number of male players and the female players of course, males out-pace. So for example, top ten, no women, top 100, well I was there, yes, one, but now I don’t know, and top 200, I believe probably only me if we’re talking about active and then maybe the next 200 players another [woman] something like that. Maybe I’m wrong, but just to say that maybe one in 100, yes, that ratio. So a couple of reasons, the first I think that the men participants, in general, their fundamental number is greater, much greater. So of course, [there will] appear better chess players, stronger level. And also, grandmaster already means something professional. It means you spend some time in chairs, you participate in a lot of tournaments, you gain experience. That requires, as I said already a couple of times, some personal traits. They also need to sacrifice on other things, let’s say personal life or maybe some other interests; you need to make a decision. And for this, girls, women, might get distracted, a certain period or certain age does [have] a different reason. Also the way to the grandmaster is not that easy because, Brian, you mentioned that grandmaster is just like the best, the strongest, the top level of chess players. To achieve that there are certain ways and the most common way is that you need to get three norms. For each norm, you need to reach the rating performance above 2,600 and then you need to participate in a tournament that all the players are at least from three or more different countries. They’re actually FIDE details, the information requirements of how to achieve a norm; you’ll see that’s a well-designed and complicated system. That shows that if you only perform good once, no, not enough, you need to keep playing well. You need to have a stable performance and your own rating should be above 2,500 and then you can get this title. So different aspects added together, then you can become a grandmaster. But of course, there are other ways, special ways. For example, if you win a woman’s world champion title, you can become a grandmaster immediately. Or if you become the runner up of the Woman’s World Chess Championship, you get a norm. So although I was world champion, I got the grandmaster title even before that, because I won two norms and my last norm came from my runner up experience of 2008 Woman’s World Chess Championship.

Brian

Today, I think you’re just outside of the top 100 or just within the top 100. But what does it mean for you personally, to be ranked in the top 100 chess players in the world and to be the only woman in the top 100 or even close to it?

Yifan

Nothing special, I believe, because I think top 100…I’m sorry, but yes, top 100 really means nothing. I mean, what is the difference from being top 100 to top 500? Yes, there are differences because that’s also your strength in each level, but I mean, I don’t really think top 100 is something symbolic, no, it just shows your general performance. If you keep staying there for years that shows you have a stable performance. I think that’s the only thing to me; to level your skill at those periods. That’s the only thing. But if you ask me, okay, if top 20 means something, top ten means something, yes, that definitely, that means the elite level, the best chess players, yes. But anyway, I’m happy because if we talk – not from myself, my personal case – but if I talk as a female chess player, to be honest, I’m happy to see it. Today me, maybe previously, we have Judit, who by the way, already has top ten wins, top ten already, previously. We have Humby who was in the top 100. Maybe later on, we’ll have more female players from younger generations who might step up to the top 100. I think in general, this is good. This shows that girls have power, this shows that the general performance of women in chess are playing better. It’s generally better than compared to the previous years. I think that’s a very important movement. That means a lot, but that’s not talking about my personal case, I’m just talking about the general development of women’s chess. I think that’s really important. I have to say that first, we have people continuously in this top 100 and also we might have more women players in this field, I think that will be good.

Brian

I think you’re being humble when you say that it’s not really special to be in the top 100. I think it’s a remarkable accomplishment. The fact that there have only been three women ever in the top 100 is pretty significant. But in doing research for the interview, I’ve noticed you being sort of casual about your achievement or really humble, but I do think it’s a significant accomplishment. Do you ever think we’ll see a woman world chess champion?

Yifan

Well, of course, I personally hope so. I hope in the future that we may have the woman who shows the real power and can compete among the best to fight for the crown. But despite this hope, if we’re talking about the objective situation, it’s difficult, it’s hard to imagine in the next ten or 20 years, I think that’s very difficult, very difficult. Just, I don’t see the younger generation anyone [who] shows this potential to become the best. So that’s a key point. I think similar to other fields, STEM fields or other physical sport fields, just like [it is] very rarely that ladies could achieve the best. These kind of topics are very popular, but if talking about chess [there are] different reasons, some of them I mentioned before, like the concentration [needed] in chess, the general physical situation, the general energy, because really it’s a sport so you need to be in good shape; physically ready for a long and very frustrating fight. But also, maybe the brain structure, neuroscience, I don’t know if there are some differences that could also matter, that men and woman perceive chess differently, I don’t know. It’s an interesting topic. For example, if you look at those emotional decisions that may occur more in women’s chess, drawing games occurred more frequently in open section compared to the women’s section. Sometimes women tend to make more emotional decisions like trying to win, trying to fight and less focused on the tournament situation itself; just play chess, not to play chess in a tournament. I don’t know if that correctly describes the difference, but I think all those things could be factors in how the general threads of men or women show differently if we’re talking about the results.

Brian

I think it’s a fascinating discussion and you’re right, we don’t know all the components that go into it. I think it’s interesting to hear you describe it because we get some sense of what it takes to achieve success at a high level in chess. You talked about the draws and the fortitude required to play through draws and to play through an entire tournament. It has to be incredibly draining and obviously you need to be very, very focused. As you know, losing that focus for just a moment can be the turning point in a game that causes you to lose.

Yifan

Disaster, yes, that could be. I remember that well, the tournament, I was very young, I got a completely winning position almost like checkmate on my opponent and I was already thinking, okay, next round who am I going to face, the opponent, what opening strategy I should have. Suddenly, my opponent had a counter play and then several moves later I lost that game. Exactly, sometimes you get distracted even in your own brain [it] affects you [and] that could turn the game over. That’s actually the essence of chess, you need to be fully concentrated and have a pure mindset. I think that’s very important.

Brian

That’s probably the reason I’m not a better chess player, I don’t have the patience and concentration to be able to work through an entire match. Our game would be very quick, I think.

Yifan

Well, I just want to say that for me now, I [am in a] more or less similar situation with you, it’s hard to be fully concentrated; that’s another story. I just want to add to that – talking about our emotional topic before – from my own experience, in some situations, I remember clearly important tournaments and in the last round, I only needed a draw to secure the champion, if I lost maybe I would lose the title. Already my position is slightly better [inaudible] and I have a good chance to leave the game to a forced draw situation and somehow, I refused; I felt like I should fight for a week. Now, that sounds a bit…not professional. Yes, I did. Playing and playing, playing and then I got [in a] worse position. Luckily, finally, I saved that game, I kept the tie, but still, if you are a mature chess player in those situations, you just need to go over that situation, happily draw, and then you win the tournament. Because it’s not like you have a huge advantage, it’s just like, slight, slight, slightly better, rather than just deciding to play chess. I don’t know if this situation happens to a lot of other woman players, but [those] I talked to feel yes, similar situation happens. But if we ask top players, maybe they want to make the same decision, because I remember when I was playing with them – I mean, the top ten players – when they felt like the position might be out of control, they know how to take it back, to control it or try to find a way to simplify the position. I think that could be a major difference.

Brian

Is that a function of patience or strategy? What causes them to be able to navigate through that tenuous situation and sometimes reverse it or change it so that it ends up being a draw rather than a loss?

Yifan

Well, I don’t think it matters about patience or strategy, no, that’s all about technique. Because if we’re talking about strategies, someone knows how to plan, how to make a strategy, but everyone knows there’s a draw so now it’s not about strategy. I think it’s just like how you deal with yourself or how you can be with another you…I don’t know how to say…you need to persuade yourself, go; go for it, accept the draw. Do not overthink, do not really focus on the chess itself, think about it’s a tournament, it’s your career. I think it’s this kind of thing, not about technique, but just you should have the right mindset.

Brian

I love your passion. Yifan, what do you love about chess?

Yifan

Ah, well, it’s hard to say because for me, chess is just chess. I couldn’t really give it another alternative word to define what is chess, why do I love chess. I think chess, this word chess, actually means a lot. So first, I love it because it contains unlimited variations combined with the calculation, strategy, combination and pattern recognition, the shape, and the balance – a lot of things if we’re talking about – pure techniques. But also I like it because it can reflect things outside of the chessboard, say, life decisions, how you tackle challenges and how you negotiate with yourself. I just feel like every player is or should be able to, or could, find their own definition about chess and consider all their experiences through chess.

Brian

I love that. As successful as you’ve been in chess, though, you’ve made it very clear – again, I saw this a couple of times in my research – you’ve made it very clear that although chess is a part of your life, it’s not your whole life. I know there was some controversy when you stepped away from the game after winning the World Championship in 2016. Can you tell us about that decision and the reasons for making the decision and the impact that it had on you and also on the chess community?

Yifan

I believe that was a crucial decision, although back then I didn’t really think about what this general influence could be, to me that was just a decision similar to any of my other decisions, maybe just think a bit more and talk a bit more, something like that. Why I made that decision is because…I believe in your research already you know a lot of background, I’ll try to make it short. I first won the World Chess Championship title in the women’s section back in the year of 2010 and then won three more times 2011, 2013, and 2016. And all of those three times I won through matches, well, we can see the match is kind of the highest level to define who is the chess champion, as nowadays the system shows. But back then, it was different, because every time I was the challenger to play the match and trying to fight against the current champion. How that happened is because in those years one year is a match, the other year is a knockout system. So almost every year when you have a new champion it makes this like very, very tiring and very complicated. Because if we look at the chess history, all of the famous matches – Bobby Fischer, Spassky, Kasparov, Karpov – all those matches are decided by the World Championship match to decide who wins the title. So I think match is one of the best formats to see who is the best player, or to me, it’s much better than the knockout system, because the knockout system contains a lot of uncertain things. If you were suddenly not in very good shape that day, you lost a game and then you only have one chance to fight back, already it’s a different story. And even if you’re lucky enough to win, okay, then tie break and for a tiebreak with shorter time control, bad things could happen. But the match, no, it’s like sometimes 24 games, sometimes 12 games, 10 games, already you can perform, you can have one or two days [and] not [be] in very good shape but if you’re strong enough, you definitely have the chance to fight back. So this is a format that seriously demonstrates who might be the best player or who is qualified for the title. Therefore, after three times winning the match, and also [being] the highest rated player, I thought, okay, maybe it’s time to provoke some change. That’s my reason, it is not because, okay, I’m too tired to play all these events. I believed that I could keep playing as a professional chess player, because if I kept going, maybe my career path would be different and maybe I would not study at Oxford, maybe I will not be a professor at another university. And if I keep playing as a professional chess player, I believed that I definitely could win a few more woman’s world chess champion titles because my winning there, my age there, I was still young and could put a lot of energy [into] chess. Well, I thought, okay, so that’s me.

Brian

That’s part of what surprised me was that you were so young. I think the system for the Women’s World Championship is different from the Open. Was that part of the concern that you had? Or that you thought it should be the same, rather than the alternative system that the women had?

Yifan

Yeah, that’s also one of the reasons, not the only reasonable, but of course, I didn’t see the reason why the two sections should have different systems, especially in the open section; the title decision is from the match, like the traditional ones. I thought, why [isn’t the] women’s section the same. So also, that’s one of the main reasons but also for me personally, I thought if you keep playing the system you may not have that much time to practice yourself, to play with stronger players to improve your chess level, that’s one thing. But also, I felt like if not me, who might stand out in the near future to call for the change because I’m definitely one of the players that got involved very deeply because I played the whole system; not like some people said, okay, you don’t like the knockout system. No, my first title was won from the knockout system and even two years earlier than that I entered the finals – twice entered the finals – in the knockout system. That’s not an everyday situation. So I actually grew up from that system but also because of this I know that this sometimes could be coincidental. So I hoped that title should be decided in a more fair system. That’s the thing. So I stayed out because I felt like maybe…actually, before that, I talked to the chess people in FIDE and also other people several times, even writing official letters, to talk privately, and most of the people thought, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That’s definitely reasonable. But we do have .1, .2, .3 difficulties to change in the system. Of course, I know it’s different, it’s difficult, it’s not that easy – that’s a kind of revolution. Still, I kept talking and then they kept offering, but no changes. Sooner or later, I felt like okay, maybe you need to stay out publicly and then maybe it can provoke or maybe not, if not, that’s fine. But if it changed a tournament I thought that’s a big step for women’s chess. Okay, later on, we see that it changed. So that comes to your second question, like how it influenced the chess world and myself. For [the] chess world I think it’s good for women’s chess, because later on, I think in 2018, they changed the system and now the match decides, and the winner who won the title could just stay there and wait for the challenger. And then we have this knockout system, called CAPS and then we have this Candidates Tournament. So both sections are nowadays almost the same. That’s good. I mean, the better players deserve the title. Although I said better players deserve the title [that] doesn’t mean the players who never win the title are not the best players. No, actually, I know some of them who are very good, who are very gifted, that would play very well since we were both very young, but I found out they didn’t win a title, but they’re some of the best of women chess players still. So I’m still happy and do not regret my decision if we’re talking about the development of women’s chess. But if we’re talking about my personal case, of course, there’s influence, not positive influence because of this, okay, I gave up the title and then they changed the system. They said, okay, now you come back. I said, back? They said, yeah, you can play from scratch, play this Candidate Tournament and then try to challenge the title. I said, okay, but I just gave it up, okay, you asked me to start from scratch. And also they changed it to a specific moment where the first time World Champion is decided in a local system. And that year, I remember in 2008-09, during my study at Oxford, and they [told] me, you can play this. I said, okay, but I only have one year to study at Oxford, and [if I] play this maybe I need to prepare; that’s somehow unlikely. So I decided not to play that and already I missed the best chance to draw back [into] this circle, so sooner or later I’m not involved anymore. So if you think about influence, I’m not holding the title and now I’m not a professional chess player. And of course, I have to admit that – talking about this actually – the price conditions also improved a lot compared to those years when I was playing, so financially yes, it’s like a huge drop down, but that’s fine. I mean, of course once you make some decisions there will be ups and downs. So I in general, I’m very happy that I could try my best to just push forward women’s chess a step further.

Brian

I appreciate that background and I’m glad that the system changed. It seems like you really did have an influence on FIDE changing that system. I think that’s terrific.

Yifan

I was the champion, I was a highly rated player, then I decided not to play. Of course, it caught a lot of attention and maybe outside or inside they decided to focus on this issue. I think FIDE has a lot of things; management board, professional chess, general promotion of chess, getting chess in school, a lot of things to do. To make this change a priority is not so easy. And maybe due to [my] decision, there’s oh, it’s a serious thing, we should try to prioritize it. So I’m very happy that they finally saw women’s chess as important and this trend continues nowadays because many chess players, including myself, feel like FIDE really improved a lot for women’s chess in the last couple of years. So that’s a good thing for most of the female chess players.

Brian

Yes, it is. Yifan, you’re now at Shenzhen University where you became, as I said in the bio, the youngest full professor in the university’s history. Share how that’s going. It’s obviously very different than what you were doing as a chess player. What does life look like for you as a professor at Shenzhen?

Yifan

Oh, well, yes, at that time, yes, although now it’s changed. Now I’m actually associate professor at Shenzhen University because of an administrative change. But anyway, I’m teaching students, I’m working as an academic staff on campus. That’s true. So talking about your question, how it’s different, I think it’s like both. First, it’s very similar, because my profession is still about chess but it’s about chess teaching, chess training, building up a chess team, and also doing some chess related academia projects. I say it’s the same because the topic is still surrounding chess, or surrounding the mind games, that’s a key thing. But the difference, of course, my role has been changing. Previously, I was mainly a chess player, playing my own games, or sometimes with chess people promoting chess around the world in different locations but that was part time. But now I see chess, not [with] a player’s perspective, but as a chess person. So I need to consider not only professional chess, how they are doing, how they train, but I also need to think about how to design a good chess curriculum in the college to make it more suitable to the students here, how to build up a college chess team and what are the key points. And then even you think about how to use chess as a tool to cultivate the college students who do not know about chess, just like in general cultural things, and cultural sports; that in those fields how to explore its potential role; I think that’s the main thing. Apart from it, also I’m doing some administrative work in my department. So it’s not all about chess and all about coaching, it is just some daily work, I get to apply academia projects and some HR things from administrators. I think that’s good; through these experiences I also get to know more things, get experience in my other skills, and also get to know this world more, [broaden my horizon] because previously I was more or less a chess player so my perspective was a little bit narrower, a little bit limited. Now it’s like, okay, from a game to a career, a game to a new career, new position, new role and new potentials. So in general, I’ve really enjoyed these past couple of years and am happy that I know more things. And it’s through this process that I also feel like, in particular, [in the face of ] questions now, how I assess the perspective [has] changed. Previously, I know how I could think about those things, how I would like to deal with it, and then nowadays, I really could think about that; there’s not like black and white, it is not always right and wrong. You see things really more in a general and middle perspective.

Brian

How does chess fit into a college curriculum? That’s interesting to me, because in the US, the educational system is a little different. Chess wouldn’t be part of a formal – and I don’t know if in China it’s a major or what role, what opportunities there are exactly, but I know, at least to the extent that you’re teaching, you’re in the physical education department and chess is a program within the physical education department. Can you share more about that?

Yifan

Chess is in the physical education department because [it is] following the country’s policy. For example, in our department, we do have other sports as a major, like swimming, like ping pong, table tennis and we do have gymnastics and different things, basketball, just different sports and chess is just like one of those sports; exactly the same. But of course we do have our own unique traits because chess is a mind game and how you cultivate students should be differ from the other sports. Back to your question of how you generally design the curriculum, nowadays because most of the lectures I teach regularly still are to the students who do have a certain chess level, that means they know chess from before. So it’s their major course, they have to pick it, which we call it the fundamental course, they have to study this course. So I designed the curriculum both for college students and also for a good chess player. So I do combine chess skills, tactics, opening, the middle game, end game, these kinds of things. But also they are college students so I try to add in how to write an essay, or chess related articles sharing, and also our efforts to cultivate students [includes] trying to teach them to become a school teacher of other sports, that’s one of our main cultivating efforts. Sometimes I ask my students how to teach, ask them to try themselves to gain the practical experience; the difference between playing yourself and then teaching it to others. So basically, this teaching course curriculum design is really focused on our specific situation [for] those students. But in the meantime, I’m also trying to search for how to design a selective chess course for those students who don’t know chess; that’s a different story. I think that’s the main part if we’re talking about sports culture, because then you need to not only teach them how to play chess, because of course, they don’t want to be a professional chess player, they choose this course due to the reason that, okay, they might feel like interested, maybe they want to build up their strategical thinking, trying to learn more about chess history, or maybe interested about AI and chess. So you need to make sure that your course design is well run because it may benefit different people in the different sections. Also nowadays, in China, this psychological issue is always an important topic. We try to encourage students to exercise, trying to find their own way to release pressure, trying to build up and become stronger to deal with pressure or deal with failures. So in those type of topics, I believe that in this, chess also can have a role. That’s another thing that I’m interested in, gathering some material for a future plan.

Brian

I’d like you to share a little bit more about that. I’m going to ask you a specific question. You’ve talked about this a little bit already but again, it goes along with what you just said. What do you believe are the most important lessons about life that we can glean from the game of chess? I’ve seen a lot of parallels – in your responses and in our discussion – between chess and life. I wonder for you, as a chess player and an educator, what your thoughts are around that.

Yifan

Actually a lot of lessons, but after hearing your question, the first answer that came to my mind is to negotiate with yourself, or except to the un-perfectionism. I don’t know if that’s the right word, so to give an example, I was the kind of person trying to find the best answer, the best move, trying to always search for the perfect solution, the perfect option in a chess game, and also in life decisions. But just through the chess career, I realized that. In a game I always tried to find the best move and spent a lot of time and said okay, yeah, you found the slightly better move, now you’re under time pressure. Your opponent has a lot more time than you and easily, most likely, you will make a blunder and then you will throw the game away. Once you have these kinds of situations happen several times you start to think about, does that perfect move really exist and even if it exists is it worth it for you to spend a lot of time on it and then give yourself less time to tackle the following challenges that maybe aren’t expected? Later I thought, no, it’s not the way, you just need to find the most appropriate decision in the specific situation and give yourself more room. Make sure the situation is under your control. So talking about this, in short, appropriate is equal to the best, there is not always a best decision but always a best for you. The suitable, the most appropriate for yourself, I believe that’s best. And the other thing is, you need to accept that no one is perfect. So you need to realize un-perfectionism is another way of perfect. These two things are the lessons I learned through chess and actually adopted to my life outside of chess world. So for example, while I was doing my undergraduate studies and graduate studies on campus, I was also keeping active as a professional chess player, so I balanced that well. But it’s hard to do if [in] both you wanted to be the best of the best. I’ve realized, you need to set realistic goals for both. For example, for me, I was like, okay, I can accept that my chess dropped slightly, dropped down, not as good as previously. I can accept my academic performance was not the best, but of course, you try your best under the limited amount of time. So I think that works well.

Brian

Well, those are great lessons. And by the way, your English is extraordinary. Your English is far better than my Chinese, I can tell you that for sure.

Yifan

Thank you. That’s sweet. Because, for this kind of presentation I get used to speaking Chinese. So I can just kind of describe much better, but hopefully, you and your readers, your viewers could understand what I was trying to talk about, because I think that’s really important what I wanted to share with our friends; that makes me a little bit anxious, but, that’s fine.

Brian

No, you’ve explained yourself very well. Your explanation might be a little bit better in Chinese, but none of us would understand it so I appreciate you speaking English. Yifan, what advice would you give to aspiring chess players who want to follow in your footsteps and achieve some level of success in the game? And then more broadly, and as a final response, what thoughts do you have for listeners and viewers on achieving success in any area of life? Because obviously, you’ve achieved a significant level of success in chess.

Yifan

That’s a hard question, because I certainly feel responsible for my answer. But in general, I feel like trust yourself is always very important, no matter whatever you are devoted to. Trust, passion, willpower; I mean, these key words are matters in different fields, of course, but if you want to achieve something that’s basic. But if we’re talking about advising young people who want to achieve in the chess world, maybe in other fields, one advice I would like to share is to try to find your own perspective, your own understanding through the thing you learn, no matter whether it is chess or anything else, find something that belongs to you. That’s very important. So when I was young, although I accepted other opinions and I tried to learn them, I always kept in mind wait, if I don’t do this, is there any other solution? If not this, can we find something else? So always having this kind of question and thinking about [that] everyone has their own understanding towards something so do not always try to copy; try to extract the information that others give to you, yes, that’s important, that’s what we need to learn but you also need to find your own way to export, transfer through your brain, have something based on this, but maybe improve the level from yourself, this kind of thing.

Brian

That’s great advice. Xièxiè, Yifan.

Yifan

Bù kèqì! You’re welcome!

Brian

It’s been such a pleasure having you on the show today.

Yifan

Oh, thank you, Brian.

Brian

Thanks for tuning in to LifeExcellence. Please support the show by subscribing, sharing it with others, posting about today’s show with Yifan on social media, and leaving a rating and review. You can also learn more about me at BrianBartes.com. Until next time, dream big dreams and make each day your masterpiece.